Justice Factions

[Erica]

(FYI, I haven't run this by ANY of the other immortals, this is just an idea)

I think one of the things we need most now is a justice system, and the justice clans that go hand-in-hand with that.  Basically at this point, the Shining Guards are the only one that has actual quests and players, I believe.

I was thinking of a system similar to EverQuest, if anyone's ever played that.  The way it works is, killing a mob results in various groups of people liking you more or less, basically.  Killing innocent villagers may give you a severe hit to CitizensOfCaemlyn and CitizensOfLugard, but give you a positive bonus to BanditsOfThePlains, or whatever.  Then, you assign mobs to be on one specific faction and act according to how that group feels about you.

It may be that killing 5 innocent humans gets you to a level where Caemlyn guards will attack you, but there may be some other smob or anything else that you can kill to get positive faction with those guards.  Say, 1 human = 5 smobs, or something along those lines (I'm not offering numbers here, just the concept).

Say you've leveled killing gnarled trees.  At first, your faction will be neutral, but after you've killed enough trees, they'll come to recognize and attack you on sight because of your bad faction, but it may be that killing trees also raises faction with some villagers nearby, who will only give you a quest once you've gained tons of their respect (aka faction).

Races would also incur basic penalties to groups; for example, any human would start with horrible faction with trollocs.  If they want to be darkfriends and complete some kind of quest that raises faction, then the trollocs may someday tolerate them and be non-aggro.

Does this make any sense?  Any comments/suggestions/etc?  I need to finish bladeforms first, like that wasn't a big enough project....

[the_muffin_man]

To my limited knowledge, it looks alot like the fame/notority system the RP imms set up, except with fame/notority, it is more RP intensive and less based on killing. Dunno. I do prefer that the system we choose be less violent. I like the way it is set up that you will not get insta-wanted if you typo and hit k instead of l. *grumbles about the times he's done that* I like the way that people, over a period, build up a rep, either being 'good/neutral/evil'. What I am worried about is that this may prompt players to think evil = killing = a way of rp = darkfriend-wannabe = cool. This is NOT the way I would like to see things done. Killing should not be the only way to get fame/notority. On the contrary, killing should be frown upon by all save trollocs/fades/shadowspawn inc. Even darkfriends...no...ESPECIALLY...dfs should not view notority as a good thing in their clan. They are suppose to be kept secret, at all cost. Will have to think up of a solution. Any input from players/imms will be great.

*I can't find a god buncing muffin that is remotely cute... have to use digimon until I find one..*

[Erica]

I haven't spoken with them about the fame system that they're thinking of, but here, killing will be the _primary_ way to gain/lose faction, and note that I mentioned darkfriend faction involving a quest.  The reason it would be the primary way is simply because that's what a lot of people do a lot of the time.

Most of the factions in the game would be very ordinary things like towns, villages, clans, etc.

I think this has all kinds of fun RP possibilities, as it can create towns that just tolerate you, towns that really like you, one person in a town who hates MOST people, travelers from one town inside another that have different values, etc.  This could even be one solution to Loril's problem with the Aiel on the silk path aggroing.

It's not by any means a perfect system, but you could think of ***mud's system of justice as a subset of this one, or a simplified case.

[Loril]

Given the fact that I've been bugging max about ji'e'toh, I've gotten a decent handle on fame/notoriety as well.

I think that your fame goes up in two possible ways, killing a notorious killer, and player recommendations.  Say I'm a neutral character in fame/notoriety (fame score 0).  I chat with someone and think, man he was sooooo helpful, I would have the ability to "award" fame to him, because I'm so neutral, my word isn't all that meaningful, so it might raise his fame score by 1 point.

As a famous player (say score 100) I could do the same and effect them by say 5 points (all this is just examples and NOT the actual formula).  Same way some jerk comes up and messes with me, i could affect them to the negative as well.

Also, kill a Shining Guard mob, expect your fame score to fall, kill a bandit, expect it to rise.

What this all effects could be many things, maybe a famous person pays less to rent in a nice inn.  While a notorious person may be refused.

Similarly JI will work that way for Aiel, some newbie aiel sees you wearing an earring, you may lose a small amount of ji, if say Cuchulain sees you wearing an earring, you may lose a larger amount of ji.  Guess what happens if you kill a gai'shain? or a Wise One? or a member of your own society?
You will be refused by certain shopkeepers, or possibly refused entrance to a Hold altogether.

This is all just what I've put together in my head listening to conversations amongst the Big Wigs so don't quote me directly, they'll all just laugh at you for listening to me anyhow

[Cali]

Honestly, I don't really care for the Fame/Noteriety, or however you spell it, thing from what I've heard.  Can we say abuse!  And besides I don't understand how really anyone's word would be better than anothers.  Sure people may be more influential in a clan, but why would an Illianers word count for squit in Tear?  It makes very little sense unless you can only award fame for your own personal faction.

[Loril]

Let's be honest, if Flarn says "UTMoonbog is a murdering scum!" more people will believe him than if UTMoonbog says "Flarn is a murdering scum!" (sorry two names that just popped in my head no offense meant to either of you, and neither of them, to my knowledge, are murdering scum)

But like i said I don't have the specific details, just rough ideas from conversations I've been around for, I would imagine there would be a check so I can't go recommend fame on one player 100 times a week, and they recommend for me 100 times a week, to bring up each other's fame, but "word of mouth" does, and should mean something.  You piss a lot of people off, expect consequences...

But let's say, oh some guy named Salik(why is he a perfect example so often?) goes around killing people, those people would submit negative fame/notoriety scores, but he helps out a crap load of players as well, and they recomment positive, they cancel out each other... In this case I refer to a character that was both a serious ***hole, AND a VERY well liked character, by two different groups of people, so they should cancel each other out.

[Loril]

oh my, I need to go through the censored word list i think...

[Erica]

I think the fame system you've described is good in general (it reminds me of a circle-of-trust paradigm I've seen in the past), but the obvious downfall is that it assumes the entire world has the same notion of what things are "good" and what things are "bad".  It does sound like it could fit nicely into my faction idea, though

One specific faction could be your ji'e'toh, or your fame, or whatever.  Some mobs could react to it, and some could completely ignore it and react to some other faction you've affected.  This way, you could have some kind of worldwide fame, as well as how well you're received in each local village/town/city/nation/empire, and apply each as it is appropriate.

What does an Illianer care what who a Tairen thinks should be famous?  Wouldn't a human dreadlord care more what a darkfriend who's completely UN-famous thinks than some random trolloc who happens to have PKd a lot and gotten respect from other trollocs?

It seems more RPish to see:
 Your faction with Trollocs got worse.
 Your faction with Aiel got better.
 Your faction with Humans got better.

Than it would:
 You feel slightly more respected.

I think the RP imms are going to kill me for this one.

[Fahad the aiel]

lets say a bandit, kills someone without anyone knowing about it, and suddenly he gets wanted and chased.....

i am not for that fame idea, it eats rp for breakfast

[the_muffin_man]

Just some of my view on it. I personally like how it is all about reputation, or lack of it. I think I like it better with the differences in each race. For example:

Wetlanders would have:
fame/notoriety
Trollocs would have:
glory/failure
Aiel would have:
ji'e'toh/shame
Seanchan would have:
honour and disgrace (in the Old tongue of course- which I cannot recall)

etc etc, We could also consider stuff like thief groups.

[Erica]

the_muffin_man said:

Aiel would have:
ji'e'toh/shame

Wouldn't Aiel have ji and toh?

[Loril]

ji and toh are not opposites
Ji is honor, shame would be it's opposite

Toh is obligation, now NOT recognizing your toh to someone may result in a lack of honor, but you can be the most honarable Aiel in Wot, and still be gai'shain.

[Fahad the aiel]

speaking of gai'shain, is it going to be dealt with in playing hours? rl time?mud time?

[Kemael]

heh, is the policy on PK deaths still the same? Would make it easy to spot PC murderers in an IC fashion (using this policy of course)

[Carus]

First, yeah Erica if this is imp'ed i'd stay well clear of any any RP immortals, they might try to use those blademaster forms on you  

But i like the idea...Fame Honor...Glory Failure...but just with the Aiels Channelers, Wise Ones can't be dishonored by the majority of Aiels they handle there own privately so there is no public consquences for them. And the Male Channelers of the aiel are not feared and hated, but they are outcasts. But if they do there duty to go up to the Blight and spit in sightblinders eye then they get honor. So its like this, Everyone should like said MC, but nobody wants to have him over for tea.

And i bet were all smart enough to think of nice little ways so it doesnt get abused.....too bad....but come on, if you someone really sat down and think of things they could figure out how to abuse anything, our goal should be they have to sit there all week and think about it, then we Send the Newly Improved Chilly Willy mob after them<cackles madly thinking of the look on Maxims face when Chilly gets his rematch>

And look at it this way, if some Joe FancyPants goes around killing entire forrests then those forrests should get ticked off at that person and look for revenage....This could be very cool thing like pracs how you have to work for it, like you have to spend a bunch of time looking to make your trophy list one thing or another, give those bored lvl 51 something to do.

Later Everyone time to go Fight Crime
*Carus mutters " now where did i put my batarang?"

Carus